So this happened...

Shaving gear and other stuff for guys and girls.

Visit Bundubeard's Shop

So this happened...

Postby Bundubeard » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:19 pm

Warning; Loooooong post.

Dappershaves supported our store (Thanks for that Jacques) and visited me on our smallholding once or twice to look at gear and have a chat. He asked me if he could sharpen some of my straights as I have quite a few laying about that are not shave ready, I declined as I had some equipment on the way from Japan and would like to do this myself. He visited me again as he was after a new straight razor, and again asked if he could sharpen my razors, this time round I gave him 14 razors to sharpen, and he took a straight (Buffalo horn Dovo). I suggested him not paying me as we can deduct the agreed cost of R200 per shave ready razor prior to him paying the balance. From here on out things turned pear shaped, he returned 13 razors and kept one (Joseph Rodgers) as he was eyeing it for himself, or needed to do some more work on it, I can not quite remember the exact reason as he was also after a few of these razors for his collection. He explained to me what he had done and what his findings was with the razors he sharpened. He left after this and I agreed to have a decent look at the razors in the following week or two. Upon receipt of the 13 razors I gave him another lot (around 19) to get going on.

One of my own Dovo's was amongst the 13 he sharpened, I eagerly stropped it up that night expecting a smooth, if not superb shave, but felt a nasty tug on the first stroke, and gave up after trying a second stroke. I inspected the Dovo under a cellphone magnification jobby and picked up some chips that were the culprits. Needless to say I was disappointed as I was expecting some great honing from someone who sells a service in just that. I initially told him I will look the razors over in a week or so, but after my experience with the Dovo I decided to get stuck in and go through them all. The bottom line is that I was happy with 4 of the lot he did, it took me a few hours as I had trouble with my device's batteries and had to manoeuvre a headlight around while holding my phone to take pics while zooming and focusing. I sent Jacques some pics of the Dovo and he acknowledged it was not acceptable. I sent him some pics of the other blades also, after which conversation started going in the direction of him rather returning the 19 blades as I would more than likely not be happy with the result. We both agreed to this and fixed a date and place and I collected the blades. When I wanted to finalize our transaction I said to him I am willing to deduct R 800 off the price of the straight razor he took, he then sent me a Whatsapp claiming he had done proper work on all razors, and that he would charge me for 13 of them, and then pay the balance, which he indeed did. There is always two sides to a story, and for that reason I will post his last message to me, and my answer to him, which was the last communication we had. Being called 'besotted' for taking 6 hours out of my day to try and give proper feedback on something that should/could improve his own knowledge and service delivery and this being called 'me looking for faults with his workmanship' was quite a slap in the face, that put aside, I am the client and I was not happy with 9 of the 13 razors, personally my first reaction if I was the service provider would have been to come and collect the 9 razors again and look them over/re-hone/re-evaluate or discuss each of them with my client, claiming 'I am right you are wrong' is certainly not an option, especially if you had already acknowledged some of your own work as unacceptable.

Jacques to me;

Dankie vir jou terugvoer. Ek wil ook graag bylas na al jou boodskappe sodat jy ook my kant kan hoor. Soos bespreek het ons ooreen gekom dat ek 13 skeermesse vir jou shave ready skerp maak. Ek het hierdie skeermesse Saterdag oggend 7:30am 18 May aan jou terug besorg. Die besoek was 2 ure waar ons elke lem individual ondersoek en bespreek het. Jy het my daarna nog 20 skeermesse gegee om shave ready skerp te maak. Shave ready skeermesse is cutting edges wat die “thumbpad test” of ‘hanging hair test” slaag, daarna is skeer skerp n persoonlike perspective. Ek het aan gedui die ZY is nie goeie staal nie, maar jy het my nog steeds gevra om dit te doen. Dan jou fotos onder n microscope, watter maginifation is dit 60X, 100, meer?? Jewellers gebruik 10X loop om polish en cut te evaluate op diamonds. Ek verstaan dat jy dalk onder n microscope lewe, maar dan stel jy die verwagting vooraf dat jy op 60-100X maginification geen defects wil sien nie. Van die images is digitally resized dit is hoekom die detail so swak is. Daar sal altyd chips en imperfections wees onder genoeg vegrooting. Jy het my vintage lemme gegee met merke op die lemme, honing kan nie merke los verby die cutting edge nie. Dit weet jy maar soek nog steed fout. Jy sê verder dat dit jou 6.5 ure geneem het om hulle na te gaan, dit is 30min per skeermes onder n microscope sonder om te kyk of hulle die enige van die genoemde skeer skerp toetse slaag. Jy het 30 min per lem spandeer om fout te soek, dit is verspot. Ek gaan jou 20 skeermesse wat ek het vir jou terugbesorg, ons het gereel dat jy dit Vrydag middag in Centurion kom haal. Ek kan ook nie sien dat ons verder enige sulke projekte gaan aan pak nie. Jy het my werk aanvaar toe ek by jou weg is Saterdag oggend. Jy het 2 ure gehad om na van die skeermesse te kyk en my werk te bevraag. My rekening by Bundubaard beloop R3890, jy sal my vegoed vir die werk gedoen en af gelewer, dit beloop R2600 soos ooreen gekom. Ek sal dit van my rekening by jou af trek en die verskil oor betaal vanoggend Groete Jacques.

Me to him;

Goeie môre Jaques. Ons het beslis nie elk van die 13 skeermesse individueel ondersoek nie, jy het my vertel wat JOU bevindinge was op elke lem toe jy skerpgemaak het, jy het gepraat, ek het geluister. In der waarheid het jy gesê die staal op die ZY's is nie goed nie, nie ek nie. Jy het ook gesê die staal op die een met die wit scales is beter as die staal op die blou en swarte, jou afleiding, nie myne nie. Wat ek wel gesê ek het, was dat ek nog nooit self n ZY skerpgemaak nie, ek weet nie hoe die staal slyp en die geometrika op die skeermesse is nie, ek het geen afleidings van staal kwaliteit gemaak nie, juis omdat ek nog nie een gebruik/geslyp het nie. Ek het niks gedoen om enige van die 13 skeermesse te toets of fyn te bekyk nie, jy weet dit net so goed soos ek. Vir die rekord, ek het jou nog nooit genader om skeermesse skerp te maak nie met beide gevalle, die 14 en 20, het jy my gevra, of jy dit kan doen, ek het nie die diens nodig gehad nie. Jy weet self ek het stene wat op pad is van Japan, en my beplanning is/was om my skeermesse self skerp te maak. Ek het jou werk 'the benefit of the doubt' gegee', maar na ek nie twee 'strokes' met die Dovo kon skeer nie het ek geweet iets is nie lekker nie, en het hulle deurgegaan. Jy self het saamgestem met die aanvanklike foto's dat dit onaanvaarbaar is, nou sing jy n ander deuntjie? Ek kyk op die selfde manier na my eie werk, daar is baie faktore wat n rol speel voor elke mens besluit of n skeermes reg is vir skeer, al dan nie, en dis elke verbruiker se volste reg. As jy tegnies wil raak gaan ons maande sit en praat, maar die feit van die saak sal bly dat ek (jou kliënt) nie gelukkig is nie. Jou tegniese toenadering vind ook nie aftrek by my nie, as jy so daarop ingestel is/was, kon jy maklik op jou eie vir my gevra het wat my criteria is, of vir my gesê het wat joune gaan wees. Die ooreenkoms was 'shave ready' en ek sal 9 van die 13 skeermesse NIE aan n kliënt verkoop as sulks nie, want dit sal my EN jou reputasie in gedrang bring Ek kan nie sien hou jy jou werk kan verdedig en my metode van evaluasie aanval nie? Ek het jou wel gesê ek is gelukkig met 4 skeermesse, dit sê tog dit kan gedoen word en ek is nie oordadig in wat ek verwag nie? As jy daai 4 tot my verwagting kon skerpmaak met jou bestaande toerusting kon jy die ander ook mos so doen? Die feit dat jy sien dat ons nie projekte saam aanpak nie is jou eie afleiding, persoonlik hou ek nie 'grudges' teen mense nie, en is altyd bereid om n tweede kans te gee, jy is op die defensief, en as dit die manier is hoe jy dinge wil afsluit is dit hartseer, maar goed so. Ek sal volstaan by n uitstaande rekening van R3090, en sal dit waardeer as jy dit so kan oorplaas sodat ons hierdie episode agter ons kan sit. Mooi naweek vir jou.

Like I said in my reply, the fact that I am happy with 4 razors indicates that I am not overly pedantic, and my concern was for our own, and his reputation, one cannot sell something you are not happy with as shave-ready, it is as simple as that. I have uploaded some of the pics to a file in Google drive feel free to have a look if you like;

https://drive.google.com/open?id=130ZdX ... QSSvGaj2uZ

The thing that worries my most is the fact that he did not set a proper bevel on some razors, one can see this without any electronics. Like most of us know, it is just about impossible to obtain a good edge without a proper bevel. The pic clearly shows where his stones hit the steel, on the spine and then on the section on top of the factory/previous set bevel, he never had a good base to start with. This was on one of the ZY razors, 2 of them I was not happy with, and a third was one of the 4 that looked pretty good.

I post this here for a few reasons; 1) To warn folks send your razors to someone with a solid reputation, this is not the first time this has happened to me. 2) Do consider getting some stones yourself, opinions on 'shave ready' will differ, and if you are serious about using straights often this would be the best solution. 3) To make sure the facts are on the table with regards to this transaction, the shaving community is close-knit, and I certainly don't want a reputation as someone trying to undercut suppliers by not wanting to pay them for services delivered. 4) To urge Jacques to do the right thing and settle the outstanding amount, if he fails to do this I will leave it at that, I have learnt its more beneficial for our business to do productive work than to chase after money.

Sadly (but also remarkably) this is the first encounter of such a nature in our business, all our clients are really top-notch, I love the trust and respect that we have in this industry, and try and convey that same ethos to all our clients. I have left this matter lie idle for a couple of weeks, as I know one comes into different perspectives over time, but reviewing this chapter leaves me with the same conclusions, likewise it serves to have the other party change their views and resultant actions, which has also not changed since our last conversation on 25th of May.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Boendoebaard/Bundubeard

Kry daai boendoe van jou gesig af/Get that bundu off your face
Bundubeard
 
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:45 pm
Location: Donkerhoek, Pretoria

Re: So this happened...

Postby JAYDEE » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:48 pm

Wow.......this is unfortunate. I haven’t seen him in a long time here in the forum.
JEFF
JAYDEE
 
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:51 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: So this happened...

Postby dini » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:24 am

Sorry to hear about this , Jaco .

As you have mentioned within this community we generally conduct ourselves in a much better fashion , and in a small circles like ours it does not take long for this sort of behavior to come to the surface.
dini
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Thu May 07, 2015 2:31 pm

Re: So this happened...

Postby Bundubeard » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:41 pm

Cheers guys, and thanks all for not turning it into a roasting session of any one individual, it was/is not intended that way.
Boendoebaard/Bundubeard

Kry daai boendoe van jou gesig af/Get that bundu off your face
Bundubeard
 
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:45 pm
Location: Donkerhoek, Pretoria

Re: So this happened...

Postby RiverValleyTrading » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:02 pm

Sorry to hear about your trouble Jaco. I think it's best to put this down as a learning experience.
This is how my Grandfather shaved
This is how my Father shaved
This is how I shave.


http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/seller/306126/RiverValleyTrading
User avatar
RiverValleyTrading
Commercial Vendor
 
Posts: 13494
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:36 am
Location: Durban

Re: So this happened...

Postby JAYDEE » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:34 pm

Diplomacy was never one of my attributes but this is not a place to knock people in public.
JEFF
JAYDEE
 
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:51 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: So this happened...

Postby ShavingB » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:01 pm

Ah Man this is soo upsetting! I got burnt with 1 straight razor by an “expert” in making straight razors, no one on this forum, and it infuriated me. I went out and ordered a set of stones from Germany.

I haven’t found on your site yet but I know you have brought some stones in. I think this can help a lot of people. At the time I wanted, I couldn’t find anywhere and as you said, if you serious about straight razor Shaving, it is worth learning something yourself.

Have you done some honing yourself in the past?

I’m no expect as it is a art in itself, I’m still learning but it is definitely interesting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
User avatar
ShavingB
 
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 6:12 pm
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Re: So this happened...

Postby ShavingB » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:13 pm

My Afrikaans isn’t Great but I had a look and also at the pictures.

I think the razors are bad. Good to hear your stones are on the way.

Here is a Wade and Butcher I received that had been restored:

Image

I do tape my spine sometimes if I don’t feel the bevel is bad, anyway it had a chip and I wanted to get the chip out and touch up the edge. Here is the result.

Image

Image

I don’t mind sharing the little I know to try help you get started.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
User avatar
ShavingB
 
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 6:12 pm
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Re: So this happened...

Postby Thug » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:22 am

Wow, sorry to read about this Bundu.

Looking through those photos, I see a lot of chips and double bevels. I know a lot of straight users that hone razors both professionally and as a past time and none would accept edges like those in the photos. I know I certainly wouldn't.

"Daar sal altyd chips en imperfections wees onder genoeg vegrooting" :lol:

BTW, I've been touching up my own razors for years and am still not comfortable in trying to hone a razor from beginning to end. It takes a certain skill which is only acquired after making plenty of mistakes and re-setting bevel after bevel after bevel.
User avatar
Thug
 
Posts: 5500
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:09 pm
Location: Johannesburg

Re: So this happened...

Postby ShavingB » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:48 am

Thug wrote:Wow, sorry to read about this Bundu.

Looking through those photos, I see a lot of chips and double bevels. I know a lot of straight users that hone razors both professionally and as a past time and none would accept edges like those in the photos. I know I certainly wouldn't.

"Daar sal altyd chips en imperfections wees onder genoeg vegrooting" :lol:

BTW, I've been touching up my own razors for years and am still not comfortable in trying to hone a razor from beginning to end. It takes a certain skill which is only acquired after making plenty of mistakes and re-setting bevel after bevel after bevel.



I agree, it does take a certain skill. I think it’s something that someone will only get right after sharpening hundreds of blades and plenty of time.

Personally I don’t mind the double bevel if it’s not a sever angle change and I clean up the edge quickly without much material removal. This happens when I tape the spine. If lots needs to be done then you need to take material off the spine as well.

My one sentimental blade damaged really makes me despise the artisan so I can’t image how upset Jaco must be.

I’m so sorry this happened to you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
User avatar
ShavingB
 
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 6:12 pm
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Re: So this happened...

Postby Thug » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:39 am

ShavingB wrote:
My one sentimental blade damaged really makes me despise the artisan so I can’t image how upset Jaco must be.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know how upset you are with that.

Moral of the story...be very careful who you trust with your straights. (although in your case Brad, i would have expected the artisan concerned to have done a much better job!!)
User avatar
Thug
 
Posts: 5500
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:09 pm
Location: Johannesburg

Re: So this happened...

Postby Chrisvo » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:22 am

This is one of the reasons I stuck with DE razors. If the double edged blade is chipped or dull, I simply bin it.

Straight razors, whilst fun, are quite a chore to upkeep and can be damaged easily if not treated right.

An instance like this would rub me the wrong way, souring my enjoyment of traditional shaving.

I'm no expert, however, when I look at those pictures I get a sense that perhaps his honing stones are not level and that more metal needs to be removed to rid the edge of chips. Some of the pictures don't look too bad but there are some that are extremely worrying.
Chrisvo
 
Posts: 2413
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:47 pm

Re: So this happened...

Postby Bundubeard » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:23 pm

There is a fine line between what many folks consider shave ready/not, but happy to hear that you guys agree with me, and that I am not being unreasonable in not accepting those razors as such.

I have done quite a bit of honing on my Norton's and got some very good edges on everything from Gold Dollars to vintage razors, but what still gets me is doing 2 GD's right after each other in similar fashion with way different results, just goes to show how technical it can get, and that you can never just run through your progression and expect a reasonable result. I still feel uncomfortable offering a sharpening service, although I do sharpen a few straights now and again and sell them as shave ready, however if a client is not happy they can simply send the razor back and we will refund him/her, not something that is possible with a honing service. Bradley's case is another example of just how badly it can go wrong.

We have had LOADS of bad luck in getting Shaptons on our store, to a point where I now have to start the whole process over again and have contracs couriered to and fro, and to be quite honest, I think they have lost a little bit of faith in us. On two occasions the documents have gone missing in transit! In the interim, I have decided to start off with a few grits of King stones, unfortunately they only go up to 8k, but my reasoning is that most guys want to start off as cheap as possible with stones that will still deliver a comfortable edge, something my Norton's delivered with its 8k cap. I got some nice stones from Japan for own use, but have had no time to try them out yet, hopefully I can add some value to these type of conversations soon.

I wish I started this earlier in my lifetime though, sometimes I got to squint real hard to have a look at something :old

The Shaptons are certainly still on the cards, so if any of you are looking for something specific from them, drop me a message and I will try and work it into the first order once we get there.
Boendoebaard/Bundubeard

Kry daai boendoe van jou gesig af/Get that bundu off your face
Bundubeard
 
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:45 pm
Location: Donkerhoek, Pretoria

Re: So this happened...

Postby deepsouth » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:40 pm

I have been a bit quiet here, the main reason I am a Feather AC zealot is exactly this. I have a few good straights in my drawer, but my research let me into Naniwa territory, I had some Norton stones 4/8 and never got the hang of it, nor the time to meet my own expectation. Hence I binned the whole idea and settled comfortably on Feather super pros to not become overly concerned about the edge. I get repeated great shaves with nary a strop or stone in sight. To be fair, it's an art to get the honing and finishing right, time I'd rather spend brewing...

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
A man well lathered is half shaved
User avatar
deepsouth
 
Posts: 3354
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:08 pm

Re: So this happened...

Postby JAYDEE » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:40 am

I had a Dovo Bismarck 5/8 which I enjoyed using for a long time before my nerves got shot and I left the honing to my barber who’s a master of that aspect because I couldn’t do it if my life depended on it.
JEFF
JAYDEE
 
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:51 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: So this happened...

Postby Bundubeard » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:33 am

DS, I am getting quite a few queries on the lasting power of the Feather shavette blades, have you tried them all and can you provide any form of statistics around them, I use them too infrequently to be able to do this? Jeffo you did the right thing, use what works for you at any given time over your lifetime.
Boendoebaard/Bundubeard

Kry daai boendoe van jou gesig af/Get that bundu off your face
Bundubeard
 
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:45 pm
Location: Donkerhoek, Pretoria

Re: So this happened...

Postby Thug » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:51 am

The 1st stone I bought was a King 1k/6k combo and I still have yet to use it never having had the need to reset a bevel.

I then bought a Shapton 12k which I used for touch ups and then bought a La Vienette Coticule which I'm currently using.

What's nice about the Coticule is that with the slurry stone, I can do a nice progression but still basically touching up the edge.
User avatar
Thug
 
Posts: 5500
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:09 pm
Location: Johannesburg

Re: So this happened...

Postby deepsouth » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:09 am

Bundubeard wrote:DS, I am getting quite a few queries on the lasting power of the Feather shavette blades, have you tried them all and can you provide any form of statistics around them, I use them too infrequently to be able to do this? Jeffo you did the right thing, use what works for you at any given time over your lifetime.
I've used most, not all. Not the lights at all.

The pro guard and pro's are the same, one has training wheels. I haven't used them for a long time now, but they outlast the super pros. I shave around the goatee and only replace with noticeable tugs. Around 3 weeks or so, performance does deteriorate but I shave daily WTG and a combination of ATG, XTG on the second pass is all I need with no a problem so far.

Your technique and blade care plays a role to extend the lifespan and coarseness of your stubble too

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
A man well lathered is half shaved
User avatar
deepsouth
 
Posts: 3354
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:08 pm

Re: So this happened...

Postby Bundubeard » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:06 am

Thanks, 3 weeks is pretty impressive. The descriptions on the blade qualities are good, but economy also plays a roll when buying an expensive shavette, so it is very positive feedback.
Boendoebaard/Bundubeard

Kry daai boendoe van jou gesig af/Get that bundu off your face
Bundubeard
 
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:45 pm
Location: Donkerhoek, Pretoria

Re: So this happened...

Postby matthewoli98 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:23 am

I was considering sending the Bismarck i got from dave to him, super glad that i decided not to!!!

Sent from my Redmi S2 using Tapatalk
Matthew Olivier (aka matthewoli98)
Instagram-matthewoli98
Cell number-0788630709
User avatar
matthewoli98
 
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:53 pm
Location: Centurion,Pretoria

Next

Return to Bundubeard/Boendoebaard

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
cron